Barium Nitrate

[OneEyeCharlie]

I often see Barium Nitrate listed in various compositions. My question is how do people get their grubby hands on it given shipping restrictions?

 

I read it bit about converting Barium Carbonate on UK Pyro and GraafVaag's little blurb on this site, but I'm more comfortable cooking with shiitake mushrooms and a 15-yr-old port than I am with Nitric acid

 

I'm gearing up for my annual 2 1/2 week sojourn to sunny, southern Florida soon (My house is about 500 meters from Lake Michigan so I got Minnesota's temps and Wisconsin's snowfall this year. Thanks guys!). Should I reroute myself on the way home through Virginia and stop at the Skylighter warehouse or do I resign myself to dabbling in the "Dark Art" of cooking with Nitric acid?

[Arthur]

Barium Nitrate is a UK scheduled poison so it is rare to find it on the shelf in stores - even pyro stores! -All soluble barium salts are poisonous.

 

Can you get nitric acid? Conc nitric is an accident waiting to happen, and an ingredient from the bad side, however reacting barium carbonate (it's a pottery ingredient amongst other things) with nitric acid yields CO2 gas and a solution of barium nitrate.

 

Add carbonate to say 2M nitric acid and when the pH reaches 7 you have a solution of barium nitrate filter for crud and then evaporate to dryness without burning it.

 

Treat barium nitrate carefully, and secure it against misuse.

[marks265]

Add carbonate to say 2M nitric acid and when the pH reaches 7 you have a solution of barium nitrate filter for crud and then evaporate to dryness without burning it.

 

Is the "crud" hazardous? I'm with One Eye'd Charlie on cooking stuff.

[Bonny]

Add carbonate to say 2M nitric acid and when the pH reaches 7 you have a solution of barium nitrate filter for crud and then evaporate to dryness without burning it.

 

Is the "crud" hazardous? I'm with One Eye'd Charlie on cooking stuff.

When doing this, I always add quite a bit more BaCO3 than needed to ensure the reaction is complete. The crud will be this excess and other impurities from the carbonate and would be hazardous as it is still Barium. To clean the tools and work area use a saturated solution magnesium sulfate (epsom salt) in water. I think it converts the barium into barium sulfate which is insoluble and not so hazardous...think barium enema

I use about 25% conc. nitric acid. You'll need a lot of water though.

I'd read the whole post on Uk pyro.

[marks265]

Thanks for the heads up Bonny! I would really rather not think about a BE though. I think after this weekend this project may go to the top of the list. I've read posts on this before and now I remember about the epson salts. Oh yea, I'll be looking further into it--don't want to mess this project up.

[Mumbles]

Yes, wash everything down with some sort of soluble sulfate. Magnesium or sodium are good. If you happen to spill a bunch of barium solution on yourself, drink some magnesium sulfate. Best case scenario you save yourself from a very awful experience of barium poisoning. Even the worst case scenario is that you make your self "regular". MgSO4 is a laxative.

 

This solution doesn't help everyone. However given your locations you could join the Michigan Pyro Arts Guild, or Wisconsin Pyro Arts Guild. Even Heartland Pyro Association, or Bluegrass Pyro Guild. They will all have members who will pedal you all sorts of chemicals, Ba(NO3)2 included. At the very least they will be able to point you in the direction of someone who can get it for you.

 

My first Barium Nitrate came when I bought a 55lb bag of it. I knew I couldn't get it in small quantities, so when I picked up my first supply of bulk chemicals, I made sure to get it.

[Arthur]

Often when your pyro peers see that you are competent they will open doors for you. Do join the real clubs and societies vaguely near to you. They will see your work and determination and sell to you or tell you where to get things.

 

One of the UK people had a perc cell running at 80 amps - he was bagging up dry pure perc in 10k bags and using it, then someone told him where to get it trade and cheaper than he could make it.

 

Perhaps the Australians would like to buy the machine as they seem to find perc harder to get than most!

[TheSidewinder]

(My house is about 500 meters from Lake Michigan so I got Minnesota's temps and Wisconsin's snowfall this year. Thanks guys!). Should I reroute myself on the way home through Virginia and stop at the Skylighter warehouse or do I resign myself to dabbling in the "Dark Art" of cooking with Nitric acid?

FFS, you live in Michigan. Quit complaining about the Winter.

 

 

All kidding aside, though, *do* join the WPAG or MPAG!

 

Join the WPAG and, like Mumbles said, you'll get all them chems you want. All you have to do is act in a responsible manner,and have a genuine interest in learning the hobby safely. Some members have done group buys in the past, and it's a great way to save money.

 

A number of our members sell chems and other pyro gear for a living, so the pond is well-stocked.

 

I think we have some MPAG (and Bluegrass??) members here, too, but not sure. If so, do speak up.

 

Oh, and YES!!! Route yourself to Skylighter's warehouse. You have to visit it at least once. Some day I hope to, just for grins.

[Arthur]

Join your local club then announce that you will be driving via Skylighter "does anyone want anything collecting while I'm there" You couls bring the stuff that attracts hazmat charges on delivery.

[crazyboy25]

Well if you only need a little and your willing to submit personal info firefox is good. You are limited to 1LB per year but i've sqeezed 2 out of them cause I got my first pound before the new rule was made.

[Draco_Americanus]

Sadly I got my barium from some shaddy dealer on e-bay, great stuff though I lost the companys contact info

I was thinking about driving to skylighter but one main probelm happened, you eaither have time and no money or plenty of money and no time.

I am from michigan too and am going to jion MPAG when i get some money aside for it

[OneEyeCharlie]

Thanks to everyone for the variety of input. Joining MPAG is a no-brainer. That was a "can't see the forest for the trees" moment. Probably my lack of binocular vision

 

Draco - Greets fellow mitten stater. I see that MPAG is having a shoot March 1st in Evart. I may swing over there for a meet & greet. The membership app has a requirement of recommendation from an existing member. Figure I'd woo them with my charming personality and self-deprecatory wit.

 

Sidewinder - FU2, I hope you don't hit 40 degrees until May . Just remembered I have to visit in-laws in Pennsylvania this summer. I decided I'll do a day trip down to the Skylighter warehouse then. It'll be like going into a casino; I'll have to have a pre-set amount that I'm willing to part with. "Gimme 2 lbs of Silicon, 10 of MgAl, 1 of Zirconium, and 25 of everything that starts with Barium"

 

I'll load up the topper on the minivan and then cue up Jerry Reed's East Bound & Down, perhaps even C.W McCall..."Pigpen, this here's the Rubber Chuck, I'm about to put the hammer down".

 

Edit: Trivia bonus points to any of the younger set who get the Jerry Reed reference; and no using Google!

[TheSidewinder]

Sidewinder - FU2, I hope you don't hit 40 degrees until May . Just remembered I have to visit in-laws in Pennsylvania this summer. I decided I'll do a day trip down to the Skylighter warehouse then. It'll be like going into a casino; I'll have to have a pre-set amount that I'm willing to part with. "Gimme 2 lbs of Silicon, 10 of MgAl, 1 of Zirconium, and 25 of everything that starts with Barium"

LMAO!!! I figured that would be your reaction. *smirk*

 

(I know because it's the same one *I* have when some Southerner says "Snow? Cold? What's that?".)

 

Oh, by he way, we're getting to almost forty TODAY.

 

Hmmmmm.... A visit to Skylighter this Summer. Lucky you! Love the casino analogy, it's dead on.

 

M

[Mumbles]

Vegas or Skylighter. Either way you're walking out $800 down. The only difference is that I bed skylighter doesn't have pretty girls in next to nothing feeding you drinks. They really should think about that though.

[TheSidewinder]

I wouldn't put it past Harry....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Oh by the way, Charlie, I got the reference. But I forfeit the bonus points because I sure don't qualify as one of the "younger set".

[Draco_Americanus]

Wow if skylighter had that I would be there next week, let me see, i will have a rum and coke with some german black on the side.

Nice to know about the MPAG shoot, maby i can convince my friend to drive his peanut as it would be an allmost 300mile round trip, does anyone know what time the shoot will be?(yes i know after dark but how soon)

 

as for the rferance i would hazrd a guess as i still use a CB radio, just dont ask what a pickle park is or ask for a lot lizard

while at a said pickle park, or any time for that matter...

[InRainbows]

You can heat barium chloride with sodium nitrate to get barium nitrate, and sodium chloride but does anyone know if you can replace the barium chloride with carbonate and the sodium nitrate with potassium nitrate in the heated method?I guess I could make sodium nitrate and barium chloride, but the less steps the better.

Sorry for the what if, nobody likes what-ifs.

[Mumbles]

I don't know where you got the idea that they can just be heated together and you'll get barium nitrate and sodium chloride.

[asilentbob]

There is a whole thread in chemistry devoted to barium nitrate... maybe even two...

 

You don't want sodium around for obvious reasons.

 

 

2NH4NO3 + BaCO3 ---> Ba(NO3)2 + (NH4)2CO3

 

(NH4)2CO3 --heat--> 2NH3 + CO2 + H2O

 

Barium carbonate isn't very soluble in water... so molten may be best... but dangerous.

 

or

 

2HNO3 + BaCO3 ---> Ba(NO3)2 + CO2 + H2O

 

 

I got my barium nitrate at the last PGI convention... 5lbs for $20... Haven't even opened it yet.

[InRainbows]

asilentbob, why did you show me ammonium nitrate reactions?

 

Also, Mumbles, pyroguide.com lists it as a method, and so does the stub on wikipedia. I haven't actually tried it, nor did I say I did.

[Frozentech]

I got my barium nitrate at the last PGI convention... 5lbs for $20... Haven't even opened it yet.

That has to be the very best way to get it. I got 10 lb before the Firefox injunction, but ended up paying $40 in Hazmat fees to get it shipped !!

[asilentbob]

InRainbows, the only line that was meant for you was the one stating that you don't want sodium impurities. If your going to get a yellow from your barium nitrate... whats the point in making it? Eh?

 

Ammonium nitrate tends to be a favorable precursor if such reactions can be carried out successfully... no fiddling around with precipitating out other stuff and cooling and filtering and crystallizing... then washing again and cooling and recrystallizing yet again... etc... none of that mumbojumbo... they should be very high yield based on the barium carbonate and you can just heat it up and all other reaction products will evaporate away leaving you with just your barium nitrate... Theoretically. Don't know if anyone has actually done this yet. Also in theory one could make barium perchlorate by just using ammonium perchlorate... In theory.

 

Analogous reactions could be done to get strontium nitrate and perchlorate too... or other compounds pending some unforseen incompatibilities or unstable nature... Theoretically.

 

... Theoretically.

 

... AND THIS WAS ALL ADDRESSED IN A THREAD IN THE CHEMISTRY SECTION.

(yes, caps means im yelling.)

[Draco_Americanus]

the formula I had gotten from pryoguides a while back used barium carbonate, potassium nitrate and vinegar, I have yet to try it as i have 5 pounds of barium nitrate still on hand so maby there are other ways to skin this cat so to say?

they all seem to be reacting a type of barium with a nitrate, being ammoinium,potassium or are favorate chemical good ol nitric acid.

I probly will not make it to the MPAG meet, i need to drive back to my lair and get mail and that alone will be a 500mile round trip, sadly the meet is about in the middle or my firends home and my lair. this dragon may like fireworks but i hate watching them in the cold lol

[Bonny]

the formula I had gotten from pryoguides a while back used barium carbonate, potassium nitrate and vinegar, I have yet to try it as i have 5 pounds of barium nitrate still on hand so maby there are other ways to skin this cat so to say?

they all seem to be reacting a type of barium with a nitrate, being ammoinium,potassium or are favorate chemical good ol nitric acid.

I probly will not make it to the MPAG meet, i need to drive back to my lair and get mail and that alone will be a 500mile round trip, sadly the meet is about in the middle or my firends home and my lair. this dragon may like fireworks but i hate watching them in the cold lol

Read this thread, lots of info there:

http://www.pyrosociety.org.uk/forum/index....=barium+nitrate

 

@ asilentbob I have made Sr(NO3)2 using ammonium nitrate and SrCO3, but what a hassle, only in desperation would I try that again. Took forever and tons of water to get rid of all the ammonia.